IRC Log started Sun Sep 9 19:42 1990 logging... *** Notice: Connecting to oddjob.uchicago.edu activated. *** Notice: Connecting to byron.u.washington.edu activated. Gwydion- there is that... Must be good if ur logging this. I want channel op too. Sane *** Mode change (+o banshee ) on channel +Highdyho by Trillian Same, I mean *** noc.belwue.de: You're not channel operator sniff sniff. Me too, me too. send to me too, mom? I've gotta go check on the paint job... *** Change: manu has joined this channel (+Highdyho). *** Signoff: Fornax hello all *** Mode change (+o lcl ) on channel +Highdyho by Trillian adios *** noc.belwue.de: You're not channel operator Highdyho. have fun bye bye bye bye Littleone. bye LittleOne! bye LO be in and out if you need me *smooch* seeya LO bye L1! *smoock* *** Signoff: LittleOne Okay all, what do we think of open servers? (First topic of discussion) *** Mode change (+o banshee ) on channel +Highdyho by Gwydion *** Mode change (+o CMole ) on channel +Highdyho by Gwydion I want food. *** Cerebus has changed the topic to Oper meeting Oh... we are talking about servers. PIZZA!!!! shut up banshee Great if all users are guaranteed great. yes Venus-Mom. *smack* servers? ooo... masters as well? I bet you're wondering why I've called you all here... 8) why have open servers? Pizza... *sigh* but there are a lot that are great on open servers why not? Is this a discussion? No, a disaster. *Sigh* Good question, Ban. Four score and seven years ago...... yes, thats what we want to know.... our fathers... Unfortunately, none of the eris opers are ever around to ask. -> *derbear* Hiya.... fine, thanks..yourself? can you read me ? then again... why not have open servers? damn. forgot the rest. *** Mode change (+o Silver ) on channel +Highdyho by Kat I'm outta here... please send me a log (cmole@caen.engin.umich.edu) thanx banshee- security hole. thena gain.. do we even NEED one more server. ONE AT A TIME! I can't keep up... I'M WHY YOU DONT WANT OPEN SERVURS shouldn't we be getting people to use clients... and connecting in. brought onto this continent... or was that unto? I can't keep up at 1200 baud... *** Change: CMole has left this channel. BIFF is very right - serious security hole. *** Change: Kat has left this channel. STOP THE GETTYSBURG ADDRESS! Four score and seven years ago, our fore fathers brought forth on this continet a new nation.... BIFF *is* a serious security hole. heh-heh lcl- I think you know what purpose BIFF serves. /kill security hole Naw, BIFF is just a HOLE. nent. contineNt. NO, IM JUST A SERUIS ASSHOLE *laugh* gwydion... I can spell.. just can't type. banshee - you need food... think of pizza... banshee: why not the contiNET? a nice delicious pizza.. interesting "discussion", *sigh* OK. enough chitter-chatter. *** Change: Exxon has joined this channel (+Highdyho). *** Mode change (+o Exxon ) on channel +Highdyho by Exxon let's get down to business. *** Change: manu has left this channel. Well, the last discussion was constrctive, but... ;-( Hey I don't want to remove eris... I had fun telnetting there last weekend. cerebus - why did you call this meeting? Hey folks! Exxon -- we have no seawater in our gas. banshee: *laugh* Okay guys, WHO WANTS OPEN SERVERS? NEither do i, not anymore. not me. (we need a count) nor i. I do! I do! No not me. *** Signoff: Exxon Me!!!! (for devils advocate) Server-open servers? not me! anyone who wants open servers, speak up and be killed. Didn't we vote on this already. Server-opens? Gack. no open servers I have no opinion on the topic Naw, Exxon just wants open bilges. banshee- yes, but the cons are worse than the pros. *abstains* IRC -- where the topic gets debated till it dies 20 times. (I squit Exxon) I don't have an opinion either... why don't you guys have an opinion? Well, the only 'yes' I've heard was Exxon And Exxon was NOT an op Trill, because they are not admins... or don't fully understand the reasoning. *** Change: meLazy has joined this channel (+Highdyho). Trillian: Why did you squit exxon? Exxon is just having fun with eris... I have yet to see any major damage it does. lcl- it was Hoppie Silver: how do you know? 1. I don't really give a damn...2. I don't know enough to give an intelligent opinion Exxon was a faked-server dood. WHAT, GIVING BIFF OPER ISNT MAJOR DAMANGE? biff shut up Annamirl: wasn't it you who complained about someone harassing you on negative channels a while ago? OR SHUD I START KILLING FOLX TO PROVE THE POINT. why dont u guys explain all the naughties of open servers to us less in the know? wouldn't this convo be better with Wumpus and WiZ around? *** Change: Exxon has joined this channel (+Highdyho). Tce: bravo!@ *yawn* Annamirl: that's one reason why server-open servers should be closed .. *** Change: IrcSkel has joined this channel (+Highdyho). Hremsg hey again. I still say.. just remove the C:*::* fromteh code to cause half the problem to go away. I would prefer there were open servers.....but I am not fanatically devoted... *** Mode change (+o Exxon ) on channel +Highdyho by Hoppie why are open servers GOOD? Ohs ure... wumpus the flame master... and WiZ the strongly convicted agaisnt open servers... too biased. pi: Wumpus and WiZ??? *** Notice: Received KILL message for IrcSkel. Path: uceng.uc.edu!zephyr.cair.du.edu!eris.Berkeley.EDU!cs.bu.edu!cs.bu.edu!BIFFVM.BIT.NET!BIT.NET!BIFF (HE SUX) *** Signoff: IrcSkel *** Change: scruffy has joined this channel (+Highdyho). Annamirl: ?? GOT THE POINT FOILKX? Um, yeah. *** Change: Ivers has joined this channel (+Highdyho). I said: Annamirl: wasn't it you who complained about someone harassing you on negative channels a while ago? oh biff wait I'll tingle at your manliness :-p Why are we even talking about it? didn't we already have a vote? pi: what is exactely one of the reasons? hi all WiZ says he won't work on the code anymore unless eris goes away...TOTALLY away. (Polymath) Um, yeah. You're quite right, cerebus. re hi melazy Tce: it is trivial to /kill anyone on IRC with a server-open server Very constructive, you US ppl. Why don't you ask who is *for* open servers? I doubt you'll find a lot of them. Trillian: I am sure Wumpus feels the same way... Gem: explain further please..... they make links quickly and when the net fals down they make it easier to repair it....that is the only real reason that I can see...an open server makes a link faster even than a server to wich you have a link.... Yes, but do we have a consensus on how to make them go away? Annamirl: one reason to close open servers is that one can intrude secret channels using them makes it much worse. No, having a solid backbone with a high connectfrequency makes things faster to repair. albertus- no they dont make the net easier to repair..whether you know it or not we have a backbone plan in the US that makes the net VERY easy to repair. albertus: so? put C and N lines in for all servers...I'll send you a copy if you want pi: I know that, but has anybody done so? and no one has bothered to define open server for me like i asked u to do albertus - you are assuming that we have a poorly designed network. Albertus: Not in my opinion. There are plenty of close alternate links to any site.. that *DON'T* introduce security holes. Having open servers encourages connections through them even when there are better ways to route. open servers serve no purpose like they did. I will sit quietly and watch now...... Tce: "telnet eris.berkeley.edu 6667" "SERVER foo" "nick Tce" will kick you off So why are we discussing this? Close them. Annamirl: well, I remember you having complained about someone doing so a few months back ... ANNAMIRL I PEEK INTO SEKRIT CHANNELS ALL TIME silver- fine, HOW? silver -how? each site can come up with at least 10 server to legally connect too.. and if they don't work.. the net is too shot to be fixed by open servers. *** Change: aich has joined this channel (+Highdyho). not for hub...no one has given us links 0ther than ione site hi hi *** Change: Soph has joined this channel (+Highdyho). hi soph the only way to have a completely secure system is to isolate it from everyone and let no one use it (i.e. no system can be totally secure) So this discussion isn't IF we should, it's HOW. Tce: a server-open server is one that accepts server connections from anywhere hi soph Hi soph pi: but then some old servers were still operating, which gave the info to anybody. Open server - Server which allows any server connection. Hey soph. As for HOW, I'm not qualified to answer. Hi Soph. oops *** Mode change (+i ) on channel +Highdyho by Cerebus *** Change: aich has left this channel. yo all SILVER WE HAVE TRIED TO CLOSE THEM BUT WISNER AND RICHARDT WONT ok - so are u suggesting that someone map out a peer network such as used by the bitnet relays ? Annamirl: (not anybody, but ops), but true .. Ivers: so? does that mean that we shouldn't close the easy-to-close security holes? *** Change: Ivers has left this channel. Hmmmm.... I feel like being nasty. No, but there is no need for that type of server. banshe: me too...go for it e Venus, can I do it to you? pi: any half way good hacker :-) tce - Can you say 'backbone plan'? tce - can you say 'conf file'? Hoppie: i think that was exactly what i just said... banshee: erm...not who is biff anyways? tce- if not, its time to mail operlist-request@cs.bu.edu and ask for a copy of the latest backbone plan that came out last Friday. WATCH TARGET DIE *** Notice: Received KILL message for Target. Path: uceng.uc.edu!zephyr.cair.du.edu!eris.Berkeley.EDU!eris.Berkeley.EDU(zephyr.cair.du.edu <- cs.bu.edu) banshee: do it to biff. Tce - It's already been done. Hoppie: being condescending does not flatter you Annamirl: the easiest way to do it is to use a server-open server ... tce - Sometimes it's the only way. VERY SIMPLE EH? yes, it is..... sniff sniff. Trill: Did you post it in operlist already? yes... very. Gonzo- ayup... SEE WHAT OPEN SERVURS CAN DO? pi: yes, but I understand that is seems impossible to change wisner's mind about it. *** Notice: Received KILL message for BIFF. Path: uceng.uc.edu!zephyr.cair.du.edu!zephyr.cair.du.edu!banshee (Like this?) *** Signoff: BIFF whee. Gonzo- Friday just before midnight...unless its still being queued. *smile* you bastard banshee I was gona do it guys dont bitch at me - im just trying to get the story straight before i make a decision I feel better. Feel better, banshee? ckd....what server is BIFF standing behind? an open server server? can not any oper set up a fake server on his server? Annamirl: true, and that is the main problem )-: *** Change: BIFF has joined this channel (+Highdyho). REHI hi ho.. hi ho. We should tell *EVERY USER* how to generate nick collisions, fake servers, bump servers and split the net.... This would *FORCE* the issue. venus, your turn. IF I WERE A PROGRAM I'D JUST KILL YOU BACK arg! YOU *again*? albertus- yeah, but why mess up your OWN machine? get lost. cani can i can i biff, and I would put one up to kill you. I *hate* autamotons. WiZ's idea of a 'fake eris' doesn't even seem too impossible to me ... it would split the net, but perhaps that would be a way to lock eris out *** Notice: Received KILL message for BIFF. Path: yaya.wpi.edu!wpi.WPI.EDU!Venus *** Signoff: BIFF bye... Biff isn't an automaton. BIFF is Usenet Prophet. bye Venus Tce - okay. It's just that the way you said it sounded like you were suggesting that something be done that would be redundant work without realizing that it was well in hand. it has been done Venus, comment your kills. :) *** Signoff: Venus more fun that way. it did split the net venus - quit. tce- open servers serve no purpose..if someone wants a link, connect to a client open server and /wallops. Net fixes are made harder by open servers.... the backbone plan MUST be followed. pi: and who is going to make that precise split? who says the backbone MUST be followed? pong x I NEVER saw a vote demanding the backbone. (biff) I CAN RUN FASTER ROBOTS THAN YOU CAN ping y. Hoppie: well im sorry... i guess i was guilty of my own claim (being condescending) forgive pls oops. *** Mode change (+n ) on channel +Highdyho by Cerebus tce - No prob. So BIFF *can* use lowercase... :) Annamirl: all ops together with thier SQUITs and CONNECTs ... banshee- it's not mandated, its SUGGESTED. It keeps the net much much stabler than when richardt did backboning... richardt has said this himself. the net was split.....for a while a few days ago there were two seperate nets...one consisting of japan australia and a few california servers, one consisting of the rest of the world.... That was a fake BIFF. Trillian, yeah.. but yu don't know the circumstances he had to get the net together. albertus- zephyr, betwixt, and others have other links set up for .au I do agree with what has been stated by Littleone in the infoserv... banshee- yes, infoserv. *shudder* IRC must have a voting/constitution set up. IRC has no formal structure for doing things. Can you see what the anarchy types will say? You need to set the rules up before playing. banshee- but how do we enforce this... richardt is already complaining 'central authority' Hey, yeah, and we can have committees, and regular meetings... Geez, we had enough problems just asking people not to have open servers. i agree with banshee. slow down. easy.. we ignore the idiot. lcl- what fun! ;-) ckd, I will get to the anarchy bit in a sec. Trill-- Infoserv is my desperate way to have admins come to a voting/or-whatsoever-else structure.. *** Change: Venus has joined this channel (+Highdyho). Trillian, I am not talking about inforcment. Gonzo- no, infoserv is your latest IRC power play. I am talking about... how do we declare a vote... one good point of getting rid of eris...that is chuckles server 8-) hwo long MUST each voting period be. WHO votes. Rocker says bye folx. nye Rocker bye *** Change: Dabster has joined this channel (+Highdyho). everyone interested enough to care should be able to vote. bye roc dont worry Drew - a LONG letter to CSU is being prepared.... voting period---two weeks? All users/opers/admins vote, but are weighted differently. what is the topic now Venus- the same. why weighted differently? don't you see that votes won't help anything? wisner won't close eris ... he will if we help him. trillian - yes.. how differently? At this point, we've already proven votes won't change some minds. pi: the first sensible point! Trillian, essentially irc has no charter... we need to develop guidelines so that in 3 weeks nobody shouts when something doesn't go there way. actually I am against all people voting. Gwydion- something the way LittleOne suggested. Perhaps 5 points per admin 3 per oper and 1 per user... so that enough users could override the admin... Wisner won't do anything until forced.. then he'll whine. i agree with banshee's 1st statement. *** Change: BIFF has joined this channel (+Highdyho). Maybe if just the automatons voted... I suggest that YES votes must justify their answer... I GET ALL THE VOTES *** Signoff: Gonzo Washington said----"Government is force" Mao said "Political power comes out of the barrel of a gun" what are your sancitons? where is your gun? who invited him..... Can Wisner somehow be locked out? *** Notice: Failed in connecting to oddjob.uchicago.edu :Socket is not connected *** Notice: Failed in connecting to byron.u.washington.edu :Socket is not connected I DONT NEED INVITING bleagh We can leaf him. That's about it short of crashing him. banshee the problem with making guidelines is that you need everyone to agree to them, and that incurs the same problems that the voting will. CAN YU SAY SECURITY HOLE IN OPEN SERVERS Yeah. BIFF is on an *open server* Cerebus: exactly. Someone should set up a fake eris and let it run. The net will probably be split for several days, but eventually eris will be locked out lcl: no way! People on *open servers* can get onto closed channels... technically speaking, couldnt all irc servers refuse to peer an non-compliant site? or am i full of shit like normal Hoppie, so we have the charter ratified by 51% of ALL users. I CAN DO ANYTHING A SERVUR CAN *** Signoff: Exxon pi: I think we should leaf him *first*. Tce- no way to manage it. (wonders what leafing is) Heck, some people haven't updated their servers or config files since last year. and the charter states how votes work differently... etc etc. ckd: real world concerns aside - isnt it still technically possible? Tce: in theory, yes, but it will be hard to enforce Cerebus: yes, perhaps .. but there are too many sites connecting to eris scruffy: Make eris connect to only one server. Technically, yeah. Politics are the problem here. <-- is not a programmer, knows VERY little how this works Speaking of real world concerns, whatever happened to that pizza? banshee somehow I think 51% isn't enough. It's too easy to have it perceived as authority over the minority by the majority, which occasionally is a bad thing. wisner has said he doesn't mind eris being a leaf..... banshee- at least it will cause disruption. *** Channel not found FOR EXAMPLE I CAN SQUIT ALL OF ERISES LINKS *** Change: Annamirl has left this channel. everyone follow trillian. pi: But we could work around that. Hoppie, then what.. 2/3? and besides - u didnt read my statement correctly - i did say ALL non-compliant sites *** Change: Trillian has left this channel. *** Change: Trillian has joined this channel (+Serv-Disc). *** Mode change (+in ) on channel +Serv-Disc by Trillian *** Inviting ckd to channel +Serv-Disc *** Change: ckd has joined this channel (+Serv-Disc). *** Inviting Hoppie to channel +Serv-Disc *** Inviting banshee to channel +Serv-Disc *** Change: Hoppie has joined this channel (+Serv-Disc). *** Inviting Cerebus to channel +Serv-Disc *** Inviting Gonzo to channel +Serv-Disc *** Inviting Gwydion to channel +Serv-Disc *** Inviting GEM to channel +Serv-Disc *** Inviting pi to channel +Serv-Disc *** Change: Gwydion has joined this channel (+Serv-Disc). *** Inviting Annamirl to channel +Serv-Disc *** Annamirl is away: please beep :-) *** Change: Gonzo has joined this channel (+Serv-Disc). *** Change: banshee has joined this channel (+Serv-Disc). *** Change: Cerebus has joined this channel (+Serv-Disc). *** Change: GEM has joined this channel (+Serv-Disc). Thank you. *** Change: pi has joined this channel (+Serv-Disc). Chn: Nickname S User@Host (Name) *** Change: BIFF2 has joined this channel (+Serv-Disc). My host just shotdowned ;-( reHighdyho. hi guys...any other suggestions who should be invited? not biff that is for sure. banshee - I suppose 2/3 is more reasonable. But I'm afraid there will be screaming no matter what, if a set of rules of any sort is defined. biff does not need to be invited.. *** Inviting Dabster to channel +Serv-Disc *** Inviting albertus to channel +Serv-Disc *** Change: Dabster has joined this channel (+Serv-Disc). Trill -- Infoserv is my power play .. please explain.. ? ;-( Thanks. BIFF IS EXISTENCE PROOF OF SECURITY FLAW *** Inviting Venus to channel +Serv-Disc biff is leaving. Can "biff" be killed? cna we have one and only one discussion goign on at a time? does it matter? NO *** Trillian has changed the topic to BEHAVE or be /kicked. his link can be /squitted. Dabster: with great difficulty... *** Inviting Silver to channel +Serv-Disc IF IT CAN BE FOUND IT CAN BE SQUITTED *** Notice: Received KILL message for BIFF2. Path: fairhope.andrew.cmu.edu!unix.cis.pitt.edu!GRASP.CIS.UPENN.EDU!ENIAC.SEAS.UPENN.EDU!Dabster (testing) *** Signoff: BIFF2 *** Inviting lcl to channel +Serv-Disc brb *** Change: Silver has joined this channel (+Serv-Disc). *** Change: lcl has joined this channel (+Serv-Disc). OKAY, everyone QUIET and REASONABLE else /kick Trillian has the floor. everyone please be quiet. *** Signoff: Gonzo *** Signoff: pi *** Change: Gonzo has joined this channel (+Serv-Disc). *** Change: pi has joined this channel (+Serv-Disc). *** Mode change (+in ) on channel +Serv-Disc by TU-Muenchen.DE *** Signoff: pi *** Signoff: Gonzo *** Change: Gonzo has joined this channel (+Serv-Disc). *** Change: pi has joined this channel (+Serv-Disc). *** Mode change (+in ) on channel +Serv-Disc by TU-Muenchen.DE !Tce! oh thanks for leaving Drew and I behind.... *** Signoff: pi *** Signoff: Gonzo back !Tce! fine - later..... *** Change: Gonzo has joined this channel (+Serv-Disc). *** Change: pi has joined this channel (+Serv-Disc). *** Signoff: Gonzo hi pi reHighdy. rehi Is someone going to say something? What is the vote supposed to be about? pi- pick up flute? Silver, we were waiting for pi and gonzo. Silver: we are waiting for Gonzo to be back *** Change: Gonzo has joined this channel (+Serv-Disc). *** Mode change (+in ) on channel +Serv-Disc by uni-erlangen.de rehi Gonzo rehi gonz *** noc.belwue.de: You're not channel operator RG flute is connected to tel4 ... reHighdyho. Topic:BEHAVE or be /kicked. pi - good deal Re .. hm, germany has problems due to munich host reboot .. ;-( tel4 hasn't changed its conf yet 8(\ Okay, I'd like to hear what everyone has to say about an irc.charter. One person may speak at a TIME..no interruptions, else you get kicked. I'll say who's going to talk, then that person has two minutes to talk. Then the next person talks. The idea is that we MUST get rid of open servers. Okay, I'll change that... Whoever talks I will give you chopr and make the channel moderated no time limit *wave* Bye all..not really qualified for this discussion... *** Change: Silver has left this channel. *** Mode change (+o banshee ) on channel +Serv-Disc by Trillian *** noc.belwue.de: You're not channel operator *** Mode change (+m ) on channel +Serv-Disc by Trillian *** noc.belwue.de: You're not channel operator banshee- speak, please. Oh great... I get the honor first. Okay.... Primarily I am concerned with this irc charter. I do _not_ want it connected to the open server discussion... but I will try to show how it is related. I _know_ irc is an anarchy. But general guidelines do help. so if we could come up with a set of guidelines on how to do things... such as voting for irc changes. ratifying backbones or anything else of irc interest. then we would nto run into the anarchy we hit each time someone advocates a change. *** Signoff: lcl essentially I see it applying to this open-server discussion in a few ways. 1- this vote... nobody knows how to conduct the vote. 2- what happens to those who do not go by the vote